Transcript

 

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Welcome to Peculiar People, the podcast where we examine what it means to be a follower of Jesus Christ in the days in which we find ourselves. We do this by talking to brothers and sisters who seek to honor the Lord in a variety of settings, whether ministry, whether their vocation of choice in some other area, whether here in the United States or somewhere else around the world. We are united in the fact that we are peculiar people, a chosen generation, a holy nation. Then Peter says that we should show forth the praises of him who has brought us from darkness into the marvelous light.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
So we are excited to have these conversations. Today, we get to have an introductory conversation with Sister Richelle Bryan. I am meeting her as you are meeting her, listeners, and I am so excited for this conversation. She is an apologist based in New York City. We’ll talk a little bit more about her ministry, but I have observed her in her social media apologetic engagement, and have been struck by things that she has said about Christ and the Bible and Christian witness. Also just a certain type of nature that really doesn’t really come up on social media often. She says if I tweet something that doesn’t honor Christ, DM me, or let me know. Certainly in our kind of settings, we don’t find that to be the case often.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
So Sister Richelle, thank you so much for joining us. How are you all doing today in New York City?

Richelle Bryan:
Doing well. Doing well. Thank you for that introduction. Yes, it’s finally warming up so I’m pretty happy about that.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Wonderful. Just to let our listeners know, she’s an apologist and a street evangelist with a heart for engaging people for Christ. Born and raised in New York City to Jamaican and Jamaican British immigrant parents. She is well acquainted with a lot of the hopes, the challenges, and the questions, of those in the urban space.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Recently in 2018, she earned her Master’s of Arts in Christian Apologetics at the Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, which I believe is in California. We are so excited to talk to her. I’m especially excited because she said her training there at Biola followed over a decade of street evangelism on sidewalks of New York City and New Jersey.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
So I am just delighted to meet you and talk to you. I so enjoy talking to people, I call it people outside of the walls. Before I was a pastor, I was a chaplain in the county jail. I ride a Harley Davidson motorcycle, so I go to a lot of biker rallies and seek to engage people there with the gospel. So I always excited to meet brothers and sisters that are functioning outside of the walls, so to say, of our churches.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
We always start by asking people, hey, we are peculiar people because Jesus has changed us. So whether you call it a testimony or whatever, how did you become a follower of Jesus Christ?

Richelle Bryan:
Yes. So I grew up, like I said, in a Jamaican-British household. In the West Indian community, you have more cultural Christianity than actual Christianity just as a norm. So, of course, there are real believers but generally everyone is a Christian. But I knew I didn’t have an active faith in Jesus Christ as I heard people speak about it, and I kind of wondered about it. But at the same time, as you might see in my bio, I have a degree in statistics.

Richelle Bryan:
So I am a numbers person. So I said, “Feelings don’t work for me.” If you say, “Well, you know, Jesus changed my life,” I’m just like, “Well, I have a really close Muslim friend, and she says that Mohammed changed her life,” etc. So it was just like why would I assume that Christianity is real just because of an accident of birth?

Richelle Bryan:
So I was kind of a skeptic. I later understood that term, but I didn’t know at the time. So I went with the doubt through college. Then finally my last month of university I had gone out with a Christian guy who thought I was Christian. He just assumed, and he started preaching the gospel to someone at a restaurant that we were at. So I actually got saved third party.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Wow.

Richelle Bryan:
Yeah. So from minute one, obviously, evangelism had a huge impact on me. I was just listening and I’m like, “Oh.” And the guys who was asking my big questions, I was listening to the answers. It was just like he was answering in a way that no one had ever answered me prior to that. So I was just like, “Oh, there are answers to these questions.” “Oh, that’s how you know.” “Oh, there is evidence,” etc.

Richelle Bryan:
Then that night tore into my Bible and I haven’t turned around since. So immediately upon getting saved I went right into apologetics because I was that skeptic. So I got saved at 21.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Wow. That is a fascinating testimony. I’m trying to remember, I won’t say ever, but you rarely hear someone say, “Yeah, I got saved third party.” That was awesome. Praise the Lord for his mercy and the fabulous ways. I laughing now because your bio says teaching at Brooklyn Tabernacle, and you say “I was a numbers person, not showing emotions.” And whenever we’re in New York, my daughter and I always try to go to Brooklyn Tabernacle because of the live, doxological worship. So that’s funny now that you’re in that setting.

Richelle Bryan:
Sure, yeah. Amazing place, yeah.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Tell me about what led you to the streets. I’m saying that, again, I’ve done jail ministry, prison ministry. I pastored in Louisville, Kentucky and many times I had an opportunity to welcome groups where they were coming to Kentucky for the Kentucky Derby to do street preaching during those few days when there’s like just hundreds of thousands of people in Louisville, Kentucky.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
So how did you begin to get engaged in that, and kind of describe you said decade of New York City and New Jersey. Kind of describe how you’ve engaged men and women, and boys and girls with the gospel. I’m saying that from the backdrop of I went to Hampton, which was an HBCU, and my first exposure to street preaching was this white gentleman from some rural part of Virginia. His name was Jeb something, and Jeb would get on a box in the middle of the campus. Jeb would preach and he would irritate people.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
But what was really funny, let me just tell you this, Sister. Later that night in rooms and in dorms, people that walked by that acted like they weren’t paying attention were actually talking about stuff that Jeb was saying. Jeb was like whatever is your stereotypical evangelist with a Bible in their hand on a box. That was Jeb.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
So I’ve just been so excited to just kind of see what have been your experiences up there. Obviously, I was in Virginia, which is a certain kind of place in the South. But you’re in New York City, you said New York and New Jersey. So number one, how did you get “out there,” and then number two, what have been your experiences out there?

Richelle Bryan:
Sure. So, of course, with my conversion story evangelism was important to me from day one. I knew that people had questions. I was one of those people who had questions. Then especially as Black woman in a “Christian culture,” who was not a believer, that said to me that we might have a bigger problem than you are generally Christian, great. Let’s move on to let’s say Muslims or Hindus etc.

Richelle Bryan:
So I knew that that was not the case. So street evangelism was just kind of an extension of what I had seen with the guy that I was dating. He had modeled that. So right after I got saved, I went to a local church. They had people go out every weekend. That’s because it was a smaller church. It was about 200 people.

Richelle Bryan:
So during that time, that was the early 2000s. During that time, that was where we started to have the megachurch, right? Everyone went to a megachurch. Those churches really kind of, and I’m generalizing, they depended on their name to attract people.

Richelle Bryan:
The smaller churches that were like 50 to 100 to 200 people, part of their church growth was evangelism. Was going out into the community and kind of introducing ourselves, and introducing people to Christ. So I feel blessed to have started with that church.

Richelle Bryan:
Then they were also very much into apologetics. Even though I didn’t have that term yet, they were all about defending the faith. So it was just about that exposure. That’s why to this day I have a conviction that every church should have a street evangelism ministry. An apologetics ministry impacts your trajectory sometimes as it did with me. So that’s how I started.

Richelle Bryan:
Now, my early days was more observing because it’s a very scary thing. People think just because you’re called that means you’re not scared. I always point them to the fact that Paul prayed for courage, and prayed for boldness because he didn’t naturally have it. Right? Why we have to pray for it. So it was just like every single time I went out, I was just like, “Lord, I don’t want to do this. I did it last Saturday. I don’t want to do this.”

Richelle Bryan:
And I still went. And every time I came back, it was like, “Oh, I’m so grateful I did this,” because it’s just literally conversing with people who have the same concerns you do. They put on their pants on leg at a time.

Richelle Bryan:
So as far as the questions, initially the questions were just kind of like, “I think I’ve done too much wrong to come back to church.” They were kind of basic. Or, “Is the Bible true?” Those types of questions.

Richelle Bryan:
As the years were on, those questions really started to evolve. It was really like questions about LGBTQ. Then you started to see much more boldness around atheism. Then it became social questions, like, “Police are in my neighborhood.” “This is a white man’s religion.” That question kind of surges every couple of decades, you know? And then it was, “Who do you vote for?” “Why are Republicans like this?” Those kind of questions.

Richelle Bryan:
So it became that apologetics was a good, nice to have type of thing. And then it was a necessity, especially in a place like New York City with gender issues and things like that. Transgender. So, yeah, I literally saw the evolution in those questions.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Wow. That sounds very interesting. I wish more Christians, and I want prayerfully through things like this podcast, more Christians to be aware of our apologetic task.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Even people that aren’t familiar with history, they’re familiar with the church fathers. But probably not as familiar with the early church apologists who were writing to the Roman Empire. And even certainly today, someone may know about Ravi Zacharias but they probably don’t know Pastor Eric Mason in Philly and Urban Apologetics, the edited work he just did. Certainly I love a Sister in Jacksonville, Florida, Lisa Fields and Jude 3 ministry.

Richelle Bryan:
Yes, Jude 3. I was on her show a couple of years ago.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Oh, wonderful. Yeah. Oh, I just love that Sister.

Richelle Bryan:
Yeah, she’s doing great work.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
The church, the brothers and sisters in the pews need to certainly understand the ministry of brothers and sisters out there in other places, again as I say, outside of the walls.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
So let me ask you a question. You say from the early 2000s, so that’s a good window, that’s a good almost 20 years. It seems to me at least for the last, I don’t know, let’s just say eight to 10 years, it seems to me that a lot of talking to unbelievers, I’m doing as much explaining about Christian truth claims as I am explaining about the witness, and the ethics, and the moral presentation of Christians.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
In other words, I think of John 13:35, “witness of horrible,” and “lovelessness is too much effecting the church.” I get frustrated sometimes because I can talk about the gospel and the unique person of Christ, like 15 minutes down the road, after I’ve done liked 15 minutes of just explaining Christians. I just get so frustrated. Like, “Y’all are making evangelism harder. Y’all are making apologetics harder.”

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Have you seen a trend over these two decades just in how the world is perceiving the ethics, the morals, and the witness, so to say, of Christians?

Richelle Bryan:
Oh, absolutely. I just had this discussion with someone. I’ve tweeted about that in the past, too. That there’s no difference between the behavior of the people in the world and the church now. Then I said to someone, I said, “If someone says I can be in the world or I can come to Christianity, and the only difference is that coming to Christ I can’t have sex, I can’t drink. I can’t this. I can’t that,” and that’s the only difference. Then why in the world would they choose Christianity? Right?

Richelle Bryan:
So that has definitely been to our shame. Like I said, I’m in New York City and a lot of the gender issues are prominent. So when I taught about that at Brooklyn Tabernacle, I said one of the first things we need to do is be honest about where the church has gone along, and humbly say, “Do you know what? I do apologize.” I personally didn’t do it, but as a church we’ve gotten this wrong in the way that we have approached it.

Richelle Bryan:
We can be faithful to the Bible, but it’s not just in doctrine. It’s also in the way we communicate that doctrine, and the way that we live it out. So, yes definitely, church hurt has been huge. It’s so funny because people will say, “Aren’t you scared about potential questions that come?” And I’m just like, “I know two main questions that’s going to come.” Like, “If there’s a God, why is there so much evil?” And, “the church hurt me.” I’m like, “That’s what you’re going to get 95% of the time. Trust me. You’re not going to get a bunch of deep apologetics question typically.” So, yes, that has come up quite a bit.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Yeah, I often tell people I’m so thankful for growing up in and around an historic Black church for one simple fact, a lived-out doctrine of theodicy, in singing and preaching, and the way your grandmama and people talked about the Scripture and the faithfulness of God in challenging times. I do find whether someone is kind of coming experientially or whether someone’s actually just coming very philosophically, theodicy is a big thing.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
When you grow up in an historic Black church it’s kind of like in your DNA. So obviously you study and learn more things, but just kind of thinking about the goodness of God in the midst of a fallen world. It has been a tremendous gift that I’m always thankful for when I look back at my childhood.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
But I do hurt for the fact that Christ says that others will know that we are his disciples by the love that we have for one another. I think the witness of Christians can grieve and quench the spirit often. Obviously if we’re grieving and quenching the spirit, we are powerless in our witness. So the best budget, and the best building, and the best everything does not bring forth regeneration or sanctification of people if the spirit of Christ is not working through his church.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
So I pray for your work. I pray for all Christians who are seeking to witness when we have to explain other brothers and sisters, or other people who profess to be brothers and sisters. I’m not concerned about the church because the Galatians and the Corinthians were as crazy as we are, so God knows how to handle crazy. But I am just tremendously burdened for the witness and how that effects our witness with people.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Let me ask you about some challenges that you encounter. Sometimes people ask me, “What are some of the major challenges?” And I’ll say, “Some challenges never change,” like the authority of Scripture, the Trinitarian nature God, and the exclusivity of Christ. But different things do come up in different environments.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
You nodded your head when I mentioned Urban Apologetics, Pastor Mason. You’re in New York City. I’m in the DC area. So obviously in the Northeast corridor, and then even over in Chicago and Detroit, you have some of those, I think he calls them, I forget, but it’s religious movements that arise because of seeking identity and perceiving Christianity to be a religion that is indifferent and insensitive, or sometimes even hateful towards certain ethnicities or certain groups of people.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
So that comes up, obviously. But I’m just wondering. In your particular context, in your experiences, again, authority of Scripture, Trinitarian nature of God, and some of certainly the racial history of Christianity in the US. Frederick Douglass, I can’t find a better phrase, “The widest gulf between the Christianity of Christ and the Christianity of this land.” But in a university setting, and then in a northern New Jersey setting, New York setting, what are some of the apologetic issues that you engage on a regular basis?

Richelle Bryan:
Yeah. I mean, my goodness, there’s so many. Yeah, I nod my head to Eric Mason. I’m a part of that UA group online, and many of those people who are in the book I’m in a group with them. They did a fantastic job. Reading it, it was just like, wow. I’ve been doing apologetics for so long, before a lot of people even knew what that was. Right? So it was nice to see that these other people were doing it, and now we’ve all discovered each other type of thing. But, yeah, he covers a lot the Black identity stuff, a lot of the Black identity cults, etc.

Richelle Bryan:
In my experience, I was definitely formed in conservative evangelicalism. So I did see a lot of issues with the politics, and the leaders. So the quotes that you saw, that was one of several quotes I had put up on leadership because I started to realize that there was a gulf between the people I came into contact with and what the leadership was saying. And how we’re choosing leaders. It seems like we are choosing narcissistic traits for leaders as opposed to choosing things that are Christ-like.

Richelle Bryan:
When you look at someone like David, he showed leadership from when he was being picked. He was like, “Oh, I’m going to be king? Okay. Let me go back and get to work.” That was a leadership thing. But people look for the strong stuff, like he was in battle and he did this, and he did that. It was after he got the title. No, he showed leadership before that.

Richelle Bryan:
So we’re picking leaders that are just bombastic and polarizing, etc. So what’s happening is people are getting more extreme. I see that there are young evangelicals, particularly in the conservative space, that are completely turned off. So now we have this whole group of ex-vangelicals. So that’s a huge problem.

Richelle Bryan:
So that’s one. And then another problem I see, I think one of the hardest people to witness to on the street are people who believe that they are Christian already. They’re just like, “Yeah, I’m Christian. God forgives me for everything that I do.” You know, this hyper-grace type of Christianity. Like everything is permissible because I’m not a murderer or something like that. They think anything short of that I’m Christian. That person is very, very hard to speak to.

Richelle Bryan:
It just goes back to kind of pride. But you have to establish what the problem is. I think a lot of evangelists, they give the solution, but they don’t give what the problem is. So you have to work on what is the problem. The problem is your sin. Why is that a problem? I don’t think people are articulating how holy God is, and how serious he is about sin. I think that’s connected to our focus on the New Testament. I think too few Christians, too few churches, focus on the Old Testament.

Richelle Bryan:
When you see the Old Testament, you see how serious God is about sin, and his holiness, and our unrighteousness. So we look at the New Testament, and we see the product of that. He says, “Be good. Be nice. Be kind.” And they’re like, “Okay. I’ll be good and be kind.” But we don’t see the story in the Old Testament, see that really played out and how serious he was about that.

Richelle Bryan:
Then the third one, like I said, definitely the race issues. As we start to discover more and more about slavery, and what the country looked like in the early centuries, and the impact now. And even looking at things like mass incarceration. That has been a real stain on Christianity because these were Christians who were behind it, and Christians, particularly conservative Christians, tend to be more punitive. So that is really difficult to reconcile with the gospel.

Richelle Bryan:
You’re telling people, “I’m a wretched sinner, God forgave me, but I’m not going to forgive that person.” The one thing that he did, that’s it. That defines him for the rest of his life. He no longer has the stamp of the image of God on him. And then all the implications for mass incarceration, and policing, and all those things. So that’s a huge, huge problem for us preaching the gospel.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Yeah, I think I’m always grieved when I notice in a bio, I like to read biography. Sometimes the people who started some of these identity cults, or religions, these were people who kind of felt alienated from Christianity. They didn’t do like Richard Allen and Absalom Jones. They didn’t go out and start a church. They went out and said, “Well, I just want to start something holistically different.”

Dr. Kevin Smith:
That certainly grieves me that a particular sin pattern would lead people intentionally away from God, and even into blindness and idolatry. I trust God to reckon all that, but I totally affirm what you’re saying about the Old Testament.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
When I teach preaching classes in seminaries, I try to encourage pastors to preach all of Scripture. American evangelicalism is very epistolary. I don’t know if you can see here, but if you just preach the epistles that takes out the teachings of Jesus. That takes out the prophetic edge, the wisdom literature. I mean it just takes out so much of the Scripture.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
So I was real encouraged to hear you say that. I tell some friends right now. They say, “Oh, man. I’m just scared. The church is in such a messed up state.” I say, “Yeah, yeah. We’re in a messed up state, but you’re distraught because you don’t know about the 10 northern tribes and the two southern tribes. God’s people have been jacked up a whole lot worse than we are jacked up. So just calm down.” There should be a gospel song says, “God is in control. God is in control.” So just calm down and God is in control.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
When you’re on the street, or you’re just engaging in conversation, what is the role of the Scripture. I’m asking that because number one, obviously I see how you tweet. But beyond that, I’ve found that a lot of sincere Christians are very experiential in their engagement with the world. They’ll tell people what the Lord has done for them, and they will talk about their lives. But they don’t always pick up that that’s not kind of exactly getting at the questions that people are asking, particularly when they’re saying, “What does God think about this?” Or, “How should I understand this in light of God?”

Dr. Kevin Smith:
So when you’re just engaged in those kinds of conversations and you’re doing street evangelism, what’s the role of the Scripture in how you go about your ministry?

Richelle Bryan:
So that’s a tricky one. I don’t want to judge anyone’s model for evangelism. I’m not going to say old school. The traditional model for evangelism is to go out and to seek after a decision that day.

Richelle Bryan:
What I taught my teams for evangelism was the best thing you can do is to get a follow-up with the person. Because what you’re trying to do is you’re trying to find are from them what are the pain points? What is the problem? What are the questions that they have?

Richelle Bryan:
So a lot of times, they start out not believing the Bible. So if you come to them and say, “The Bible says,” they’re like, “That’s nice. I don’t believe in the Bible.” And then as we went along, like I said, there was an evolution where you started to see a lot more people who didn’t have any exposure to the Bible at all. So some people would be like, “Yeah, I know the Bible, but I don’t know it’s true.” And then it became, “I’ve never read the Bible.” Or, “My parents are millennials. They never went to church, and they never showed me a Bible.”

Richelle Bryan:
So Bible literacy is really like a huge issue. Then also if you come to someone who’s like a Muslim, you can’t say the Bible says and introduce yourself that way. So what I say to my team is that you have to find out what is their authority. What is a source that they trust? Then you work from there and ask why do you trust it?

Richelle Bryan:
So if I’m talking to someone who is part of a Black identity cult, and they’re just like, “Brother This said this. Sister This said this.” Blah. Blah. Blah. Then it’s like, “How do you know that’s true? What is the source? And what if you’re wrong?” Asking these questions and then just getting them to kind of deconstruct their own beliefs. Then slowly introducing the Bible.

Richelle Bryan:
Now, that could happen while you’re standing there because I’ve had conversations that lasted two hours. And that could also happen by saying, “Do you know what? I’d love to continue this conversation. Do you want to meet for coffee? Do you want to exchange emails?” That kind of thing. And, of course, girl-girl, guy-guy. So those conversations start to happen, but your authority is really important.

Richelle Bryan:
We’re seeing that now days, where some people’s authority is OAN. Some people it’s Fox. Some people it’s CNN. Some people it’s Al Jazeera. Some people it’s BBC. You know, who are you listening to? And that’s why it all goes back to leadership, right? Who are you listening to? Why are you listening to them?

Richelle Bryan:
So I have to establish the Bible as an authority, and as a credible one. And I have to know why. And even when I taught at Brooklyn Tabernacle, my initial class was Why Is The Bible True? How did we get the Bible? People can actually get that from my blog. They can just request some of the notes from that.

Richelle Bryan:
So I talk about how we got the Old Testament. How we got the New Testament. What were the questions that we asked to say, “Yes, this actually counts as being part of the canon. No, this is not part of it.” Then why it’s the most reliable book. But, yeah, I don’t start there. I have to kind of end there after I question their authority, and then tell them why I find this as an authority. And then we go into the Bible, and then just kind of talk about doctrine.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Well, that is very helpful. I have experienced church planting in Chattanooga, Tennessee. We were by a large public housing development. We would have partner churches come and do all kinds of outreaches and things with us. I started to add some advanced training because, to your earlier point, I saw where sometimes a decision or something was more of the goal than really an introduction to Christ. And that introduction would certainly begin by figuring out who that person was. I mean the woman at the well is different than the Centurion soldier, is different than Peter, who is different than Matthew.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
So we do have to start where that individual is. Well, I’m going to reach out and definitely engage some of your training materials, and challenge you to do some of those things in a video format so we can pump those out in some broader spaces. Wow.

Richelle Bryan:
Wow. You like the hundredth person. Yeah, I have to get on YouTube. Pray for me.

Richelle Bryan:
But I’d just like to add one more thing about the Bible. You know, in Brooklyn, this is as of two years ago, for decades Brooklyn was the world headquarters for the Jehovah’s Witnesses. So we met a lot of them when we went out. I, of course, had to give a teaching on witnessing to a Jehovah’s Witness.

Richelle Bryan:
One thing about them is they get hours and hours of training per week on the Scriptures. So when you come to them, you have to know the Scriptures really well. So when it comes to using Scriptures in evangelism, one pet peeve I have is to do the tennis match, and to do the proof texting. So you take one verse, and then they answer with one verse, etc. etc.

Richelle Bryan:
So I would say that if that person is familiar with the Bible, and they’re ready to challenge you or discuss, I would say try to use whole chapters, and try to use a whole story versus just this one verse. Like the traditional Romans road, okay, it’s a good start, but narrative goes such a long way.

Richelle Bryan:
That goes back to the Old Testament and New Testament, why I’m so into the Old Testament. Because the Bible is a full metanarrative. So when you know the whole counsel of God, that sinks deeper than just getting one little point. You know, one verse here, one verse there, and create a whole cult out of it. So don’t be that person as a street evangelist. Be that person who can discuss where this fits in the whole story of the Bible, as opposed to just one verse at a time.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
And then we need some Godly patience. We would often have baptism testimonies, and people would talk about… It might be October, and they’re saying, “I’m thanking the Lord today. We’re going to baptize my friend Jim, and I met Jim in January.” Or, “I met Jim last October.”

Dr. Kevin Smith:
I mean, we have to really understand that we are sowing seed and prayerfully God is doing that work through people. But, yeah, thank you. That was very helpful too, because going around Washington, DC you could have a lot on street corner tennis matches with scripture verses going back and forth.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
But I’ll tell you one thing I always felt was funny. I always thought it was funny because in Washington, DC people would be scared to open the door when the Mormons or the Jehovah’s Witnesses came around. I always thought that was lame because they know the Bible better than y’all know it. I always thought that was just lame to be scared to open the door because you didn’t even want to try to engage for the glory of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Richelle Bryan:
I would pray that they come. I would literally pray Saturday morning, like, “Lord, please let them come and knock on the door.”

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Amen. Amen. So let me ask you about rejection. I’ve pastored in several settings, different sized churches. One mostly Black, one mostly White. And consistently, people express a fear of rejection. So how do you think about that? What do you process in your mind in a moment of rejection?

Richelle Bryan:
Right. So when I think about evangelism, street evangelism, especially in New York City, you know you have to be clinically insane to want to do that in your own [inaudible 00:33:52]. You are talking to some rude people. They might throw a couple of f-bombs your way, and you’re talking to them sometimes about politics, and about religion, the two things they say that you’re not supposed to speak about. And you’re talking to strangers.

Richelle Bryan:
So I say all that to say that you should not attempt to do this in your flesh. You should be so prayed up, and that actually applies to all ministry. Right? I have found that when I am not prayed up and I am not bathed in prayer, it’s so much harder for me to get up on a Saturday morning and go, and even to see the results.

Richelle Bryan:
Now, when I’m prayed up, sometimes I might even walk the space if I get there early. I’ll walk the space and I just kind of pray to myself about the people I’m going to meet. It’s practically people walking up to me, like, “Hey, what are you talking about? Do you want to talk about Jesus?” I’m like, “Wait. I’m supposed to be talking to you about that.” Do you know what I mean?

Richelle Bryan:
And then other times where I’m just in my flesh and no one. I haven’t spoken to anyone after two hours. That sort of thing. So if you’re scared, that’s normal. But that doesn’t mean you don’t do it. That means that you ask for help. Like God is a very present help. Right?

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Amen.

Richelle Bryan:
So you lean on him to do this, because he asks you to do it. And you know, God will say, “Maybe. No,” to a lot of prayers. But if you say, “Can you please help me to expand your kingdom?,” he like, “Yes, I’ll do that.” Do you know what I mean? He will answer you. So it really is about like bathing this thing in prayer.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Amen. Let me ask you something. I find it fascinating that even people that don’t know the Scripture have certain expectations of Christians, and in many ways professing Christians fall short of those expectations. I’ve mentioned this before but I’m just curious about your Sunday thought, maybe from earlier this month. You said, “It doesn’t matter how much you read the Bible or go to church, if you’re unloving you’re an immature Christian.” Where did you get that thought?

Richelle Bryan:
That was actually a quote from the book Emotionally Healthy Spirituality.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Yeah.

Richelle Bryan:
But, of course, that’s also from personal experience. I challenge myself too. Like it doesn’t matter what education I have, how many years I’ve been doing this, if I’m not showing the fruits of the spirit then I hold myself accountable. That’s why you see that on my Twitter.

Richelle Bryan:
So it’s just kind of like, what’s going on here? Because you’re flesh is not stronger than the spirit. So if you’re really abiding in Christ, abiding in the spirit, and you have nothing but rotten fruit, it’s like what is going on here. You know, you really have to question that.

Richelle Bryan:
Actually that goes back to what are you feeding? Everything that you’re doing, you’re feeding your flesh or you’re feeding your spirit. Right? So if you’re constantly feeding your flesh, but then you’re just like, “I’m going to just brush up on a verse or two,” you’re not going to see that fruit. You’re going to see the fruit of you feeding that flesh. That’s what you’re going to see, and you’re probably not as mature a Christian as you think you are.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
So here’s a doctrine people don’t speak of in doctrinal categories. But anthropology, how we think about ourselves, how we think about others. I often think evangelistically when I’m engaging someone, they struggle with the fall and the sinfulness of humanity. So if the gospel is the holiness of God and the fallenness and the sinfulness of humanity, and the love of God in Christ Jesus to redeem us, I think that anthropology is vital to our discussions.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
But you said something I thought discipleship-wise and church-wise was just as vital for us to think about as it regards anthropology. We probably see the worst behavior in Christian circles because Christians believe salvation makes us better by default. The reality is we are not better than others. We should be more grateful as we get to spend eternity with God despite how sinful we are. What? Fix up that anthropology. What? I’m not better than other people? I’m saved and sanctified and feel the Holy Ghost. What? Fix that up for me.

Richelle Bryan:
Well, it’s so funny. I feel those tweets. I send it out and then I just forget it and I’m on to the next. To hear it back is like surreal. But, yeah, I think that actually goes back to discipleship.

Richelle Bryan:
There is a fundamental misunderstanding of Christianity. That also ties to Biblical illiteracy. So one of the most powerful verses, I think is Proverbs 3. Like, “Lean not on your own understanding but in all your ways acknowledge him and he will direct your path.”

Richelle Bryan:
So we all come to the table about what we think Christianity should look like. What should God look like? What should he do? What should have been done? And that also ties to theodicy, right? So a lot of our disappointments are expectations that are not met. But those expectations were not informed by Scripture, or by a proper interpretation and exegesis of Scripture. That happens because we don’t have leadership leading us and guiding us.

Richelle Bryan:
And even in evangelism, we make converts, we don’t make disciples. So we go, “Yay, we got this person. They came to Christ. See you in five years when I’m asking you to join us outside to go get other people.” You know? So I think that all ties in to that misunderstanding about what it should look like.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Yeah. When you encounter someone, and I think a lot of people in the pews that are scared to get outside of the church walls just don’t realize who they’ll meet when they get out there. But like in some of the trendiest artsy areas, restaurant zones of like Louisville, Kentucky I used to just meet some of the most discouraged, seeking, disillusioned, people who were in no way hostile and belligerent, but were really, really like sheep without a shepherd. But I was in Louisville, Kentucky. I mean, you’re in New York City. That’s a rough place. That’s hard people. So just tell the people in the pews, just give them a survey of some of the people they might encounter outside of the walls of the church.

Richelle Bryan:
You know, they’re people like everyone else. Right? You have nice people. You have people who are not so nice. The thing is when we think about evangelism verses, we think about one of the most common. “The harvest is plenty, the laborers are few.” And people just say that as if to say, they just focus on the fact that we don’t have enough evangelists. They don’t focus on the fact that says the harvest is plenty, which means there are plenty of people who are ready. They are open. You just say one word to them, and they have so many questions, or they have so much to confess, even to you on the sidewalk.

Richelle Bryan:
Like there’s plenty of people who are ready. So it’s not a matter of, “I have to convert every single person that I see.” It’s like reframe is as, “I have to find those people, five people, who are not ready.” “That’s fine, okay. You’re not ready. You don’t want to talk. Okay. That’s fine.” That sixth person is ready to talk, and I mean you are going to have a powerful conversation and hopefully the start of a new relationship.

Richelle Bryan:
But then also, I’m not an everybody-needs-to-do-street-evangelism type of person. If you live your life saying, “Lord, give me a heart for the lost,” he will put them in your path. Like someone will sit next to you on a plane. Someone will sit next to you on the train. You’ll fall into this conversation at a barbecue.

Richelle Bryan:
When I pray, I always pray like, “Give me give me divine appointments, divine encounters.” Right? Then it’s just like the weirdest thing will happen. Maybe it’ll be like at the gas station, and somebody just says something weird. Or they comment on the book that I have.

Richelle Bryan:
So it’s just about a posture of the heart. It’s not necessarily that you have to go out if that’s not your thing. So, yes, for those of us who do it, great. We love to do it. But do it in your own context.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
That is wonderful. I think patience is certainly something that we’ve addressed, and also you said figuring out where someone is. So that entails as you mentioned earlier, a prayer life, a walk with the Lord. Because you not going out with like a set script that you’re going to apply to everyone.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
I’m in a large denomination and we’ve had some evangelistic programs. Some of them have been very much a script. It doesn’t take long to realize that every door you knock on, or every person you encounter, does not fit that mold. Would you agree that you really don’t want to have a mindset of, “I’m going out today to say A, B, C,” because you might actually meet somebody that needs to understand M, N, and O, P. I mean, so would you agree with that as just being totally open number one, to the leading of the Lord, and number two, to just the human being in front of you that you encounter who’s created in the image and the likeness of God?

Richelle Bryan:
I’m so glad you brought that up. I think that that is really, really important, especially when you’re operating in a context like New York City, which literally has everyone from every corner of the earth. So if you go with a script, they will automatically pick up that you are not sincere.

Richelle Bryan:
So I would say always do the Jesus model, which is you ask a lot of questions. A great evangelism encounter, I used to tell my teens, is when they’re speaking 80% of the time and you’re speaking 20% of the time. Traditionally, we think that we should be like preaching to them, “And then the Bible said,” and then this, and then this, and this. They’re standing there and it’s like drinking from a firehose, when you should really be asking, “What’s the most important thing to you?” And then you listen.

Richelle Bryan:
And as they speak, you’ll hear. That’s what Jesus did. When you see him in the gospels, so much of his conversation started with questions. He asked a lot of questions. Then when they answered, he would answer with a question. So one book, if I’m allowed.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Yes, please.

Richelle Bryan:
One book I would suggest for evangelism is Questioning Evangelism. It’s all about asking questions in evangelism encounters. If you are interested in street evangelism, or evangelism in everyday encounters, that is definitely one of the better books. I’ve given away tons of those to people. Questioning Evangelism. Very good. They speak about Jesus’ method.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Wonderful. Well, Sister Richelle Bryan, oh my gosh, you have been a breath of fresh air today, and an encouragement to us. Would you tell our listeners how they can follow you, or contact you, or be exposed to your resources.

Richelle Bryan:
Oh, thank you so much. So, yes, it all starts from the blog, apologeticsinthecity.com. apologeticsinthecity.com. No spaces. It’s the same handle on Twitter and on Instagram. And, Lord willing, soon on YouTube.

Dr. Kevin Smith:
Yes. Yes. We’re going to talk about that as soon as we get off the air. Oh, well, thank you so much for coming on to the Peculiar People Podcast. We wish God’s blessings and much fruit on your ministry.

Richelle Bryan:
Oh, likewise. Thank you so much. Thank you for your heart.

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